#122 That Would Be An Ecumenical Matter

Cooper and Cary have words about the ecumenical movement, how and why we just can't get it together this side of glory and maybe that's okay. How did Billy Graham, John Stott and Martin Lloyd Jones manage these issues. Cooper talks about Evangelicalism Divided by Iain H Murray and Cary has another swipe at Pilgrim's Progress.

James gives Bunyan's magnum opus a good kicking in The Gospel According A Sitcom Writer.

There's a whole EXTRA SIX MINUTES, plus actual talking faces at the Cooper and Cary Youtube Channel. Watch it HERE.

Transcript

00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:30,800
[james_cary]: Welcome to Cooper and Cary Have Words. My name is James Cary, I live in
[james_cary]: England, in the southwest of the U. K, in the county of Somerset, and over there
[james_cary]: in Florida is my friend, Uh, Barry Cooper, Hello, Barry,

319
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,520
[barry_cooper]: Hello, James. Lovely to be with you in my post Thanksgiving haze. Here.
[james_cary]: indeed, and we've just been having a chat with our patrons a little bit about
[james_cary]: the weirdness of a Thanksgiving and the desperarate meal that we Brits. Uh, see
[james_cary]: when we look at a Thanksgiving table, but obviously we're missing the point. Uh,

323
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,960
[james_cary]: that we should be more thankful to. We're not going to get to sidetracked Ono.

324
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,360
[james_cary]: that. what are we talking about this week, Barrykeeper,

325
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,440
[barry_cooper]: That would be an Ecumenical matter

326
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,400
[barry_cooper]: we are. if you don't get their reference. By the way, you need to look up some

327
00:13:17,260 --> 00:13:18,260
[barry_cooper]: clips of

328
00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:19,900
[james_cary]: Father Ted?

329
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,400
[barry_cooper]: Father on you tube. the ecumenical movement. Now we are fully aware, Arm, we,

330
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,400
[barry_cooper]: Father on you tube. the ecumenical movement. Now we are fully aware, Arm, we,

331
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,920
[barry_cooper]: James, that the wordical may well bring with it the kind of drowsiness that
[barry_cooper]: you'd expect from a post Thanksgiving Feast.

335
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,720
[barry_cooper]: So can we explain it in terms which make it seem even remotely exciting or

336
00:13:37,780 --> 00:13:38,780
[barry_cooper]: relevant to anybody?

337
00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:40,420
[james_cary]: Well, let me

338
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,520
[james_cary]: emphasize the drowsiness that word causes, but also why it's may be worth

339
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,760
[james_cary]: thinking about. Ecumenism is the kind of thing that if you are, if you were, or

340
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,160
[james_cary]: maybe still art, young, restless and reformed. it feels like a distraction. It

341
00:13:54,240 --> 00:14:00,400
[james_cary]: feels like old men. Uh, mostly men in rooms, trying to find stuff to agree on.

342
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,120
[james_cary]: Uh, there's the World Council of Churches, I think isn't that that's a thing.

343
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,480
[james_cary]: And if you are, if you're if you're an evangelical and you are preoccupied with

344
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:15,520
[james_cary]: evanglism and those sorts of things, you're looking at these uh federations of

345
00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:16,660
[james_cary]: churches and thinking,

346
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:20,560
[james_cary]: what's the point of that? What a waste of time.

347
00:14:21,020 --> 00:14:22,020
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

348
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:27,680
[james_cary]: And uh, but there's something, but I think that's more a a reflection of an

349
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,160
[james_cary]: agent stage, Uh, he says,

350
00:14:30,220 --> 00:14:31,220
[barry_cooper]: then again,

351
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,400
[james_cary]: age now, age forty six,

352
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,840
[barry_cooper]: yeah, right then again

353
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,040
[james_cary]: and a member of the Archbishop's council in the General Syd of the Church of

354
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:38,080
[james_cary]: England, Um,

355
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,920
[barry_cooper]: then again, if you're really big on avangeism, you might be thinking.

356
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:46,040
[barry_cooper]: Actually, that's precisely why we should all be getting together in rooms and

357
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,040
[barry_cooper]: working. How we can just work together. Because we all need to be doing

358
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:55,000
[barry_cooper]: evangelism. Wouldn't it be better if for example, Roman Catholics and

359
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,120
[barry_cooper]: Protestants could get together and together Because he? we were talking about

360
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,440
[barry_cooper]: the same Jesus, aren't we? So let's pull our resources. Let's you know, Put

361
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,840
[barry_cooper]: aside Patty squabbles. And do? I think that was probably one of the one of the

362
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,120
[barry_cooper]: motivating factors for the Aical movement?

363
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,680
[james_cary]: I think talking from the U. K. At least I know what it's like in America, but

364
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,640
[james_cary]: um, th. I have some sympathy with that view, particularly because, although we

365
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,680
[james_cary]: keep being told that the Church of England is in decline in terms of people

366
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,800
[james_cary]: turning up there, an awful lot of Roman Catholics who go to church um on on a

367
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:32,480
[james_cary]: Sunday, and also lots of independent evangelicals, Charismatics, Presbyterians,

368
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,920
[james_cary]: So, although the Church of England numbers may be dipping, but below a million

369
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,440
[james_cary]: um, there are probably several million in church on a Sunday morning, and our

370
00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:42,580
[james_cary]: collective witness,

371
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:50,160
[james_cary]: uh, would be possibly considerable if we all got it together and spoke with one

372
00:15:50,020 --> 00:15:51,020
[james_cary]: voice,

373
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:52,100
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

374
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,560
[james_cary]: Um, but. Of course, that doesn't seem very likely, does it? because it's a

375
00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,840
[james_cary]: parody really of the Christian faith, Is that we sort of can't really agree with

376
00:15:59,380 --> 00:16:00,380
[james_cary]: each.

377
00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:01,900
[james_cary]: Maybe

378
00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:02,300
[barry_cooper]: Hm,

379
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,960
[james_cary]: Gulliver Gulliver's Travels was a bit of a um parody. At least when the bit

380
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,920
[james_cary]: where he had those two tribes over going to war. over which end to cut your egg.

381
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,920
[james_cary]: Um, I think that was probably a bit of a sideswpe uh at at religious people who

382
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,680
[james_cary]: get hit up about minor differences, and as be honest,

383
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,160
[james_cary]: it is puzzling to look at, because looking from the outside

384
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,560
[james_cary]: I is a you know evangelical, Um.

385
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,960
[james_cary]: an Anglican can save the Apostles Creed or the Niceine Creed, which is extremely

386
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,160
[james_cary]: long and specific,

387
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,680
[james_cary]: and it's all stuff that people who don't go to church would not be able to say.

388
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,920
[james_cary]: They would find it rather baffling and confusing.

389
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,040
[barry_cooper]: he descended into hell. You say that be as well, Sba

390
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,680
[james_cary]: Oh, okay, let's not get into that at S.

391
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:55,200
[james_cary]: Episode one, two, three, where did Jesus go when he descended? Um,

392
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,040
[barry_cooper]: for another episode. That's for another episode. Yeah,

393
00:16:54,780 --> 00:16:55,780
[barry_cooper]: Mhm,

394
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,800
[james_cary]: and uh, he went to preach, Uh to the Giants in prison, Barry, we all know that,

395
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,680
[barry_cooper]: y, we definitely need to be talking about that.

396
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,520
[james_cary]: Um, but it's a very long creed And if we can all say it, then

397
00:17:08,580 --> 00:17:09,580
[james_cary]: what's the problem?

398
00:17:10,060 --> 00:17:11,060
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, sure.

399
00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:13,020
[james_cary]: So

400
00:17:12,140 --> 00:17:13,140
[barry_cooper]: sure.

401
00:17:12,540 --> 00:17:13,540
[james_cary]: what is the problem,

402
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:41,520
[james_cary]: Barrym,

403
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,960
[barry_cooper]: well, if we're getting together to preach the gospel and do evangelism,

404
00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:24,440
[barry_cooper]: Obviously there, there needs to be some sort of agreement on what the content

405
00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:25,740
[barry_cooper]: of that might be,

406
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,080
[barry_cooper]: And so that question of how

407
00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:37,480
[barry_cooper]: does God reconcile himself to simple human beings is a big one. It was, of

408
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,760
[barry_cooper]: course, the question that precipitated the Reformation,

409
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,240
[barry_cooper]: and many would argue

410
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,320
[barry_cooper]: that the Roman Catholic Church, if we' just thinking abouts and Protestants

411
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,640
[barry_cooper]: for a moment that the Roman Catholic Church is much the same place as it was

412
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,880
[barry_cooper]: five hundred years ago, When Luther was, you know, getting very hot, Theol

413
00:17:59,820 --> 00:18:00,820
[barry_cooper]: about

414
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,240
[barry_cooper]: exactly how it is that are that a perfectly holy God can be reconciled with

415
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:10,280
[barry_cooper]: sinful human beings like you, and I, Um. And if that is the case and the Roman

416
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,200
[barry_cooper]: Catholic Church is still teaching that, then all right, how can we actually

417
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,360
[barry_cooper]: get together and thrash out a gospel that we can both agree on in order to do

418
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,640
[barry_cooper]: evangelism together. Um. it? It's interesting. The the book which precipitated

419
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,560
[barry_cooper]: I think of us thinking about doing this episode is A is a really fascinating

420
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,040
[barry_cooper]: book called Evangelicalism divided

421
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,960
[barry_cooper]: by Um. Ian Murray, And now I think it's been out a good few years, Was gonna

422
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,120
[barry_cooper]: skim to the frontier, Uh,

423
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,680
[james_cary]: it's not a promising front cover. Will be honest. it's mostly brown and it's

424
00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:42,300
[barry_cooper]: it's

425
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,000
[james_cary]: classic Christian publishing. isn't it?

426
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,040
[barry_cooper]: it's mostly brown. Uh, there

427
00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:46,620
[james_cary]: Yeah,

428
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:50,280
[barry_cooper]: is A. A suus so of greener it looks as if a small child has Um, just

429
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,880
[barry_cooper]: discovered the word art feature in Microsoft Word. Um, which is not meant to.

430
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,480
[james_cary]: I thought you might say it looks like a very small child has just done something

431
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:00,500
[james_cary]: on a on a piece of card.

432
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,600
[barry_cooper]: However you describe that was not meant to be an in an endorsement, but Um,

433
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,760
[barry_cooper]: you know, don't judge, but by it's cover, Uh,

434
00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:07,500
[james_cary]: Yeah,

435
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,840
[barry_cooper]: it is a. really. really. I think both, James, I would agree, is a fascinating

436
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:17,080
[barry_cooper]: fascinating book. Um. and there are lots of uh, name checks for people that

437
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,480
[barry_cooper]: would be probably very familiar to people who uh, would watch or listen to the

438
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,600
[barry_cooper]: show. Uh, Billy Graham, um. John Stott, Martin Lord Jones, These are all big

439
00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:27,780
[barry_cooper]: players in

440
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,840
[james_cary]: big dogs. ▁j Packer,

441
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:34,040
[barry_cooper]: this particular book, Big Dogs Packers in there. I mean, it's real w, w. f. of

442
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:37,400
[barry_cooper]: sort of modern evangellism going on and

443
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,480
[james_cary]: but it's the kind of book that lots of probably christian leaders have read

444
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:41,840
[james_cary]: evangelical Christian

445
00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:42,460
[barry_cooper]: Hm,

446
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:47,120
[james_cary]: leaders, And it's the kind of book that I think most people in the in the in the

447
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,320
[james_cary]: cheap seats and all that stuff looking thinking, I don't want to read that be

448
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,720
[james_cary]: cause. that's basically a book about church politics.

449
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,120
[barry_cooper]: and it looks like this.

450
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:57,760
[james_cary]: And yeah, and it looks like that.

451
00:19:57,580 --> 00:19:58,580
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

452
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,480
[james_cary]: I mean, that's kind of fair enough. Really, so we've read the book so that you

453
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,320
[james_cary]: don't have to, And this isn't necessarily a book review of that book, But Barry

454
00:20:05,980 --> 00:20:06,980
[barry_cooper]: no.

455
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,480
[james_cary]: read it and has also written a little bit about it as well. But

456
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:12,800
[james_cary]: what is the book trying to do?

457
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:20,520
[barry_cooper]: Yeah. Well, it's it's the focus is on Um. the acumenical initiatives on the Yu

458
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,720
[barry_cooper]: in the Uukine, in the U. S and the U. On the U S side, he talks about Billy

459
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:30,120
[barry_cooper]: Graham and his desire to work with Um. Roman Catholic churchmen during his big

460
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:31,100
[barry_cooper]: crusades.

461
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:37,640
[barry_cooper]: Uh, on the U K side, Um, he talks about. He focuses in on the kind of spat. I

462
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:43,320
[barry_cooper]: don't think it's being too. Um, you know, On the nose school at Spat between

463
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:48,120
[barry_cooper]: the two friends, John Stott and Martin Noy Jones, who who disagreed very

464
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,560
[barry_cooper]: strongly on this whole issue of how much reproschmo should there be

465
00:20:54,600 --> 00:21:00,120
[barry_cooper]: between evangelicals and uh Roman Catholics, And should we even be trying to

466
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:06,440
[barry_cooper]: do so? Are their dangers inherent in trying to do so? And that's what Um. Ian

467
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,320
[barry_cooper]: Muri teases out in this book, not just the initiatives themselves and what

468
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,640
[barry_cooper]: they involved, but then what the fallout of those initiatives were in. He

469
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,480
[barry_cooper]: argues. It's is kind of a sad book to read. Actually, he argues that it's been

470
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,160
[barry_cooper]: Um, extremely damaging for for number of reasons, I think what's interesting

471
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:28,040
[barry_cooper]: to initially in the book is where he talks about Um. Billy Graham's offices,

472
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,920
[barry_cooper]: doing these big crusades. Roman Catholic officials are seeing the huge crowds

473
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,280
[barry_cooper]: that are that. Are you know turning up at the Dodgers stadium and elsewhere

474
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,280
[barry_cooper]: and they're thinking well, we're struggling a bit to do. Evangelism Be lovely

475
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:47,640
[barry_cooper]: if we could get involved here. Um. and so famously there were then Roman

476
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,160
[barry_cooper]: Catholic churchmanen, who would be sitting on the platform alongside Billy

477
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,920
[barry_cooper]: Graham, very visible when he's there standing up to preach. And I guess the

478
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,120
[barry_cooper]: question that Murray poses are one of the questions he posed.

479
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,480
[barry_cooper]: if you have a ton of people who flood down to the front as they would want to

480
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,920
[barry_cooper]: do when Billyraham did his crusades. Then

481
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,000
[barry_cooper]: the the whole question is all right. Which churches do we to? we put them

482
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,120
[barry_cooper]: into, And of course, the reason that Roman Catholic church want to be involved

483
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,080
[barry_cooper]: was because they were hoping that a great number of those people would come to

484
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,280
[barry_cooper]: their churches. Now If you're somebody who believes in the traditional

485
00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:26,280
[barry_cooper]: Protestant understanding of the gospel, the one the Luther held to, for

486
00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:26,980
[barry_cooper]: example,

487
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:33,720
[barry_cooper]: Um, then it's kind of a little worrying that Billy Graham is, is is

488
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,640
[barry_cooper]: getting this huge response from people. They're responding to the gospel and

489
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,720
[barry_cooper]: then they're being siphoned off to churches where they're hearing a different

490
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:49,880
[barry_cooper]: gospel. At least potentially. So the question is is is that a desirable thing

491
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,200
[barry_cooper]: to have done? At What level can we partner And should we partner And and at

492
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:59,240
[barry_cooper]: what level should we probably not do that if we really care for. Um, the

493
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,480
[barry_cooper]: effect that doctrine has on people's souls,

494
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,200
[james_cary]: That's yeah, there's las there. I think. I mean one thing that's interesting is,

495
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,920
[james_cary]: I didn't realize quite how.

496
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:13,900
[james_cary]: Uh,

497
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:20,560
[james_cary]: want to say this in as kind a way as possible. How not fussy um Billy Graham

498
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:21,500
[james_cary]: was. I'd

499
00:23:21,020 --> 00:23:22,020
[barry_cooper]: H,

500
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,440
[james_cary]: always assumed that he was a fairly conservative evangelical

501
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:32,000
[james_cary]: who was quite specific in the people that he was, as it were in business with.

502
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:32,900
[james_cary]: and actually

503
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:40,560
[james_cary]: he he seemed to be. You know. His. His. His bar was very low. He had very few

504
00:23:40,220 --> 00:23:41,220
[barry_cooper]: hm,

505
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,320
[james_cary]: purity tests, if any,

506
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:44,100
[barry_cooper]: right,

507
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:50,080
[james_cary]: and also his, the way in which he was happy to allig himself with presidents of

508
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:56,320
[james_cary]: the United States and various things that they. they've done and done wrong. Um,

509
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,960
[james_cary]: and it's a bit of inconsistent standard because I think Graham still has a very

510
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,440
[james_cary]: high reputation and good name. But another

511
00:24:03,060 --> 00:24:04,060
[barry_cooper]: hm,

512
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,120
[james_cary]: guy like Tony Campelo,

513
00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:06,660
[barry_cooper]: Mhm,

514
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,920
[james_cary]: who who stood with Um. Bill Clinton, who did some? You know pretty awful things.

515
00:24:12,380 --> 00:24:13,380
[barry_cooper]: right.

516
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,280
[james_cary]: I was at a gig where toy pat Tony Campe was saying, Look if a guy finds you up

517
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:23,600
[james_cary]: and says I've done this really terrible thing and your pastor or his pasor, you'

518
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,200
[james_cary]: not going to put the phone down, You

519
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,160
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, what are you going to do? Yeah, exactly yeah,

520
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:33,280
[james_cary]: so and is completely fair enough. So that aspect of the Billy Gram, uh thing I

521
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:36,800
[james_cary]: think was quite surprising Am with Roman Catholicism.

522
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,800
[barry_cooper]: And of course the reason Yeah, and of course the reason that Billy Graham

523
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:45,560
[barry_cooper]: would very clearly argue for the the wisdom of doing so. His view was well,

524
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,600
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, I, absolutely, as long as you don't, you're not dictating to me what I

525
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:55,240
[barry_cooper]: must and mustn't preach. Then Yes, I will come to your church and preach. I

526
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:00,120
[barry_cooper]: will come to your denomination and breach, I will go to have lunch with this

527
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,440
[barry_cooper]: president. Spent time with them because my hope is that if I can preach the

528
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:12,280
[barry_cooper]: gospel to them, and what this will result in is a kind of Um influence for

529
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,560
[barry_cooper]: Christ for the gospel in the world, and funly enough, we talked about the

530
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,040
[barry_cooper]: Hills Song documentary. Um, a few episodes ago. Maybe it was just for patrons,

531
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,240
[barry_cooper]: I'm trying to remember. But one of the things that came through that Bb. C

532
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,800
[barry_cooper]: documentary was, there was an incredible lust for influence in the world,

533
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,200
[barry_cooper]: and obviously Hillsng billyrammed, lots of big differences there. But I think

534
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,960
[barry_cooper]: one of the things that Murray teases out in the book is that that desire for

535
00:25:42,620 --> 00:25:43,620
[barry_cooper]: um, political

536
00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:44,980
[barry_cooper]: social

537
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,240
[barry_cooper]: influence, however well motivated it may be,

538
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:57,000
[barry_cooper]: Um, and I don't think he impunes Billyraham's motives at all. Um, however well

539
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,480
[barry_cooper]: intention that may be, takes you to a very. It takes your place. You do not

540
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:07,320
[barry_cooper]: want to be, because what ends up happening is. Um. it's a two way street, so

541
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,400
[barry_cooper]: yes, you may be able to influence a present, but also that present gets to

542
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,960
[barry_cooper]: influence you, and those Roman Catholic churchmen get to influence you in ways

543
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:21,160
[barry_cooper]: that perhaps you had not anticipated becoming an issue. And he makes the same

544
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,560
[barry_cooper]: allegation actually about John Stott, on the other side of the Atlantic that

545
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:31,320
[barry_cooper]: John Stopop badly wanted a theological, sorry, evangelical distinctives to

546
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,840
[barry_cooper]: advance, but he also wanted a renewal of evangelical influence within the

547
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,120
[barry_cooper]: major denominations,

548
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,640
[barry_cooper]: So he wanted this. He wanted there to be more power for evangelical voices,

549
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:50,200
[barry_cooper]: and in those other areas which were not evangelical, Lord Jones said to him At

550
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:55,240
[barry_cooper]: She, Look, you cannot do those two things at the same time. You can't um. you

551
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,640
[barry_cooper]: know, if you're trying to gain echumenical and

552
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,840
[barry_cooper]: denominational acceptance, you'll end up paying the price.

553
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,960
[barry_cooper]: Uh, which will? It's going to imperil the very legitimacy of these distinctive

554
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,000
[barry_cooper]: beliefs that you have. You're going to have to water them down in some way.

555
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:17,240
[barry_cooper]: Um, and I think in the book I think he, He makes a pretty good case. That is,

556
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,160
[barry_cooper]: indeed. You know what happened?

557
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:26,800
[james_cary]: Yeah, the Lord Jones thingst the flip sidecause. Looyd Jones was a Billy Graham

558
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,440
[james_cary]: in one sense, as he was a massively influential

559
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,560
[james_cary]: preacher who was obviously

560
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,280
[james_cary]: part of a church movement, But he was the one trying to call the establishment

561
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,120
[james_cary]: out of the establishment To say It's not going to work

562
00:27:42,820 --> 00:27:43,820
[james_cary]: and

563
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,760
[james_cary]: there was a parting of the ways. Wasn't there really? There were some big

564
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,040
[james_cary]: conferences at at the University of Keel in the sixties,

565
00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:52,460
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, that's right.

566
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,040
[james_cary]: which didn't sound a lot of fun if I'm honest,

567
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,920
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, yeah,

568
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,640
[james_cary]: and you, I'm sure there was some great bbible expositions going on, and Lord

569
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:06,560
[james_cary]: Jones was a biual accounter of a fantastic preacher. Um, but it feels like. I

570
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,160
[james_cary]: mean, in a way, I kind of,

571
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,320
[james_cary]: I'd rather have those discussions. It feels to me like everyone is a bit siload,

572
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:18,800
[james_cary]: and that there are probably conversations going on behind closed doors and find

573
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:23,280
[james_cary]: I know there are, but actually I would love to have them out in the open.

574
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:24,700
[barry_cooper]: hmm.

575
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,400
[james_cary]: Uh, where everybody can sort of listen and think and and work out. I don't know.

576
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,560
[james_cary]: I don't know why I want that. um, uh, but it just feels like

577
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,520
[james_cary]: everyone. everyone is. It is a bit frustrating, isn't it? And here I am in the

578
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:43,520
[james_cary]: Church of England, you know, getting arrows for essentially compromise And look

579
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,880
[james_cary]: at what's happening over there in this diocese and that diocese. This bishop's

580
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,720
[james_cary]: turning a blind eye to that. There's no discipline over here over there. All

581
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,520
[james_cary]: those kinds of things. So, and in a way it feels to me like doctrinal and

582
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,040
[james_cary]: ecclesiastical purity

583
00:28:58,100 --> 00:28:59,100
[james_cary]: is pretty easy.

584
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560
[james_cary]: Uh, by which I mean to just leave and start again,

585
00:29:03,460 --> 00:29:04,460
[james_cary]: Um.

586
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,120
[james_cary]: But the problem with what happens

587
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,600
[james_cary]: is that those who did leave and start again, Uh, let's talk about methodism.

588
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,200
[james_cary]: So H. how how did that go? Um, Which originally wasn't intended to be a

589
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,200
[james_cary]: schismatic movement, it was originally intended to be, You go to the church, you

590
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,200
[james_cary]: go to the parish church on Sunday

591
00:29:24,780 --> 00:29:25,780
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

592
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,120
[james_cary]: morning, and then enteries the Bible very well, But it's all right. We'll teach

593
00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:30,180
[james_cary]: at you in the afternoon,

594
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,680
[james_cary]: Um, but it soon became its own thing.

595
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,720
[barry_cooper]: Wesley was kicked out of the Church of England, was I? He was kicked out

596
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,480
[james_cary]: Yeah, sure, um.

597
00:29:38,180 --> 00:29:39,180
[barry_cooper]: and yeah,

598
00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:40,620
[james_cary]: but

599
00:29:40,180 --> 00:29:41,180
[barry_cooper]: and then then

600
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:41,300
[james_cary]: that was kind of the idea.

601
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,280
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, and yes, you're right. I think

602
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,800
[barry_cooper]: there has obviously been with methodism. Is

603
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,680
[barry_cooper]: such this liberalismly really taken hold there?

604
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,080
[barry_cooper]: So yeah, I think that is the way that things tend to ten. but also I think

605
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,480
[barry_cooper]: you'll point if I' hearing you right. Is that Yeah, if you have that instinct,

606
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,760
[barry_cooper]: which is well, these people don't agree with us from A to ▁z.

607
00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:08,580
[barry_cooper]: Um,

608
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:10,260
[barry_cooper]: let separate

609
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,440
[barry_cooper]: you. You tend to foster a kind of a way of looking at the world, which means

610
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,880
[barry_cooper]: you just use just endlessly. You kind of separate yourself into oblivion.

611
00:30:17,740 --> 00:30:18,740
[james_cary]: Hm.

612
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,800
[barry_cooper]: eventually. Um, I think that's a. I think that's a fair point.

613
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,560
[james_cary]: get on a ship and found the greatest nation on earth.

614
00:30:24,780 --> 00:30:25,780
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

615
00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:27,100
[james_cary]: Uh,

616
00:30:27,020 --> 00:30:28,020
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

617
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,920
[james_cary]: I mean A, after England, obviously after the United Kingdom. Obviously,

618
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:37,080
[barry_cooper]: yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think we probably do. I mean I. yeah, I mean I have a

619
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,320
[barry_cooper]: lot of I don't know. My sense is that I'm cuting more of that mind than than

620
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,840
[barry_cooper]: you are, although, maybe as I get older, Um, yes, you do i. I. I see people

621
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:52,360
[barry_cooper]: who are extremely intolerant theologically intolerant of every single of what

622
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,880
[barry_cooper]: you might call Addiaferra things, which really don't matter ▁ultimately, in a

623
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,760
[barry_cooper]: in a salvation, eternal sense, and I just get very frustrated with that or you

624
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,240
[barry_cooper]: can't ▁quote a w toza, because he was nowenian, You know that sort of thing

625
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,080
[barry_cooper]: and I'm like. Well, I don't know.

626
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:11,520
[james_cary]: well, yeah, I mean in a way.

627
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,760
[barry_cooper]: We're going off peace here a bit, but yeah,

628
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,080
[james_cary]: Oh yeah. So there are

629
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,040
[james_cary]: Is is any theological movement without error? I mean what? what's interesting

630
00:31:20,780 --> 00:31:21,780
[barry_cooper]: right,

631
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,880
[james_cary]: is the Westminster Confession has really stood the test of time, and I haven't

632
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,920
[james_cary]: heard. You know an awful lot of pushback and again. That's way way way way way

633
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,760
[james_cary]: longer than the Apostles Creed and incredibly specific. But you can. You can

634
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,040
[james_cary]: still sign up to that and still disagree with someone over something else. in

635
00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:37,740
[james_cary]: particular.

636
00:31:37,460 --> 00:31:38,460
[barry_cooper]: yeah, yeah,

637
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,760
[james_cary]: I guess the out workorkings of those things because it was a document written in

638
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:42,740
[james_cary]: the sixteen forties,

639
00:31:43,180 --> 00:31:44,180
[barry_cooper]: Mhm,

640
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,120
[james_cary]: so things are going to kind of look a bit different now. and I think

641
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,840
[james_cary]: that there's part of us which likes to, kind of, especially if you're a

642
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,000
[james_cary]: Calvinist You, you like to have a legal framework which takes account of every

643
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,840
[james_cary]: single possible eventuality and therefore nothing else needs to be said.

644
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:01,300
[barry_cooper]: Mhm,

645
00:32:01,220 --> 00:32:02,220
[james_cary]: And

646
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,360
[james_cary]: I don't think that's also how good

647
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,920
[james_cary]: does things. I think there is a progression

648
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,160
[james_cary]: from Old Testament to

649
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,280
[james_cary]: from early Church, to more mature church.

650
00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:16,900
[barry_cooper]: Hm,

651
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,920
[james_cary]: It kind of feedes back into the personsmentalalism we protected to Steveeffrey

652
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,920
[james_cary]: It kind of feedes back into the personsmentalalism we protected to Steveeffrey

653
00:32:19,540 --> 00:32:20,540
[james_cary]: about

654
00:32:19,540 --> 00:32:20,540
[james_cary]: about

655
00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:22,140
[barry_cooper]: this is the great

656
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:22,700
[james_cary]: a while back.

657
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,000
[barry_cooper]: thing about being post millennial, of course, is that you know that the unity

658
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,680
[barry_cooper]: that Jesus talks about and praise to the Father about

659
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,680
[barry_cooper]: is coming. So you know you believe it's you know that is that's on the way, So

660
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,680
[barry_cooper]: I think there's there's reason for gy optimism and I, maybe we'll get on to

661
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,280
[barry_cooper]: this a bit, but Id really like to have a look at Jesus' high priestly

662
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,240
[barry_cooper]: prayercause. I think we tend to. It's very often used a of justification for

663
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,880
[barry_cooper]: the echumentical movement, and I'm not sure. I think you mean. I think you

664
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,760
[barry_cooper]: think it means something. It does not mean. That is why I would say about

665
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,440
[barry_cooper]: Jesus. I priestly prayer.

666
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,680
[james_cary]: Well, let's get onto that now. I think I think that now' the time

667
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:06,360
[barry_cooper]: How's the time? Yes, so John, uh, Chapter seventeen, let me just read these

668
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,240
[barry_cooper]: these verses. Holy Father, Keep them in your name. He's talking about the in.

669
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,400
[barry_cooper]: In the first sense, the disciples immediately with him, at which you have

670
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,360
[barry_cooper]: given me that they may be one, even as we are one. I, either father and the

671
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,840
[barry_cooper]: son. I do not ask for these. Only he is about to pray for you, James Carey,

672
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,440
[barry_cooper]: but also for those who will believe in me through their word that they may all

673
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,480
[barry_cooper]: be one, just as you Father are in me, and I you. That they also may be in us,

674
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,400
[barry_cooper]: so that the world may believe that you have sent me, so that the world may

675
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,440
[barry_cooper]: believe they have sent me the glory that you give me. I've given to them that

676
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,000
[barry_cooper]: they may be one, even as we are one, I, and them, and you and me, that they

677
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,560
[barry_cooper]: may be become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you send me and

678
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,000
[barry_cooper]: love them even as you love me.

679
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,520
[barry_cooper]: So all right, I've got two comments on this, perhaps provocatively. See, we

680
00:33:58,380 --> 00:33:59,380
[barry_cooper]: think right

681
00:33:58,860 --> 00:33:59,860
[james_cary]: strapp in everyone

682
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,080
[james_cary]: keeps tells it like it is.

683
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,280
[barry_cooper]: here we go hit in the Rip court. Here we go.

684
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:11,000
[barry_cooper]: A. So a friend of ours is pointed out rightly. I think that there are two

685
00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:12,600
[barry_cooper]: kinds of unity. One

686
00:34:13,740 --> 00:34:14,740
[barry_cooper]: is

687
00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:17,480
[barry_cooper]: the kind that we already have

688
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,560
[barry_cooper]: by virtue of being Christian and are required simply to preserve and maintain.

689
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,560
[barry_cooper]: So an example of that. I'm thinking of you, ode, and sndcae in the Philippine

690
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,200
[barry_cooper]: church. Paul's appeal to them is. look. you're already in Christ. Stop

691
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,560
[barry_cooper]: squawled squabbling. We need to preserve that sort of unity in the local

692
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,240
[barry_cooper]: church. That's one sort of unity, the other kind of unity.

693
00:34:40,660 --> 00:34:41,660
[barry_cooper]: There are only two

694
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,880
[barry_cooper]: is one that we are not supposed to have yet.

695
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,640
[barry_cooper]: So when Jesus prays that they Mi, they may become perfectly one.

696
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,680
[barry_cooper]: He's not saying. Hey guys, you're all a bit squabbly. you Roman Catholics over

697
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,200
[barry_cooper]: here, you Protestants over here. You need to get with the Ecumenical project

698
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,320
[barry_cooper]: because it's making me look bad. You know, Can you please just start agreeing

699
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,320
[barry_cooper]: with each other? He's saying

700
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,520
[barry_cooper]: God the Father will do this. You don't do this, God the Father does this.

701
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:20,440
[barry_cooper]: We'll do it. It's future tense. So the the picture is of the day, I think a

702
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,160
[barry_cooper]: Phusian, Chapt, Forbus, Thirteen, the day when we all attain to the unity of

703
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:30,040
[barry_cooper]: the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood to the

704
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,440
[barry_cooper]: measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Well, when do we have that

705
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,840
[barry_cooper]: that fness of Christ, we attain to that

706
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,320
[barry_cooper]: that is the last. A. That's the day when we we see the Lord face to face. we

707
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,640
[barry_cooper]: are perfectly known and we perfectly know. And therefore, because we all have

708
00:35:47,580 --> 00:35:48,580
[barry_cooper]: perfect knowledge,

709
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:55,000
[barry_cooper]: we have unity because unity is grounded in truth. If we all the reason we have

710
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,920
[barry_cooper]: disunity Now is because none of us have the monopoly on truth. We all, we all

711
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,760
[barry_cooper]: think imperfectly about things. We don't have all the truth. I disagree with

712
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,400
[barry_cooper]: you. You disagree with a guy over there. Why? because we're all, uh, we don't

713
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,200
[barry_cooper]: see perfectly, we don't understand perfectly, and therefore we have

714
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,920
[barry_cooper]: disagreements about doctrine, But on the day when we see things perfectly, all

715
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:20,040
[barry_cooper]: the impediments to unity are removed and wonderfully we. B. we become one and

716
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,160
[barry_cooper]: yes, there's going to be lots of surprising people there who may be. Oh,

717
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,440
[barry_cooper]: you're from the wrong denomination. What how on earth did you get in and

718
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,040
[barry_cooper]: there? We? lots of be. We're expecting to be there from our own circles, who

719
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,840
[barry_cooper]: presumably won't be. Um, So that

720
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,240
[james_cary]: I mean this is. this is the elect right,

721
00:36:35,060 --> 00:36:36,060
[barry_cooper]: right, quite,

722
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,160
[james_cary]: and there be some there who will go. That's weird. I don't actually believe in

723
00:36:39,940 --> 00:36:40,940
[james_cary]: Thelex.

724
00:36:41,340 --> 00:36:42,340
[barry_cooper]: ha, ha.

725
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:48,040
[barry_cooper]: that's right. Well, except they will, because they'll go, he says, pompously,

726
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,640
[barry_cooper]: calvinistically. Um, Yeah, cause they'll see perfectly and they'll go. Our is

727
00:36:51,460 --> 00:36:52,460
[barry_cooper]: wrongle that

728
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:54,320
[james_cary]: Oh, I should have read a Calvinist the whole time,

729
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,680
[barry_cooper]: time there is an elect. Yeah. Ah, you guys. had you got that bit right? Okay,

730
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,360
[james_cary]: and theness is going out. Wait, wait till you hear what I got wrong,

731
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:03,000
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, exactly. there's going to be creed, a Baptist like me there going. Ah,

732
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:06,520
[barry_cooper]: can't believe that Peter Baptist were right all along, et cetera et cetera,

733
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:10,440
[barry_cooper]: Um, but that's a future thing. that's future tense

734
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,280
[barry_cooper]: in. in my view, that is a sort of unity that we are not supposed to be yet. we

735
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,400
[barry_cooper]: cannot manufacture. That is my point, so I don't think that we should

736
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,800
[barry_cooper]: therefore feel this awful burden

737
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,840
[barry_cooper]: based on reading or reading of this chapter of John, to to sort of be joining

738
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,920
[barry_cooper]: hands and singing. Come by our with Roman Catholics, who you know who may

739
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,160
[james_cary]: and if, and if you can't, if you can't join hands and in, come by with Cas.

740
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,280
[barry_cooper]: well, you know

741
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:37,600
[james_cary]: Well, what's wrong with you?

742
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,480
[barry_cooper]: you're not a proper Christian as T

743
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,680
[james_cary]: Do you ha? do you hate them? Yeah,

744
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,480
[barry_cooper]: V sitcoms of tortoise. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

745
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,600
[james_cary]: Yeah, that's really interesting.

746
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,560
[barry_cooper]: and that's right. and and no, and the. And So the answer? that is no, of

747
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,520
[barry_cooper]: course, not me. And there are lots of things I would partner with my Roman

748
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,480
[barry_cooper]: Catholic. Our Brothers and Sisters on. I mean, we had one of our Patri

749
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,520
[barry_cooper]: Patrions talking about. There's a. There's a Prin prayer meeting that they

750
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,840
[barry_cooper]: have in there. Uh, in their village.

751
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,760
[barry_cooper]: You know, there's Romanclics and's Protestants there. I think On one level I

752
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,680
[barry_cooper]: could, I could see being a part of that.

753
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:12,840
[barry_cooper]: Um, there are other things you might want to join hands with. For example, you

754
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,320
[barry_cooper]: know where it comes to things like, uh, sanctity of life

755
00:38:15,380 --> 00:38:16,380
[james_cary]: M.

756
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,320
[barry_cooper]: and dignity of human beings, and so on. Absolutely. there's lots of

757
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,880
[barry_cooper]: partnerships where there. on the other hand, if it,

758
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,440
[james_cary]: and here's here's a surprising one. Uh,

759
00:38:23,020 --> 00:38:24,020
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

760
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,840
[james_cary]: the Catholics make use of the alforhao.

761
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:30,920
[barry_cooper]: right. well, there's a whole can of worms there. That's fun. Yeah,

762
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:35,440
[james_cary]: I mean there are at least two cans of worms. Uh that you can open at either end.

763
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,680
[james_cary]: I mean so you could get full four lids

764
00:38:37,420 --> 00:38:38,420
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

765
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:38,500
[james_cary]: of that

766
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,640
[james_cary]: ones everywhere,

767
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,440
[barry_cooper]: that's right. worms everywhere. Um,

768
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:49,560
[barry_cooper]: yeah, that's right, and of course, yes, I think I think that's true, but just

769
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,360
[barry_cooper]: to finish my thorn that there are some things where I would evangelism. I

770
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,120
[barry_cooper]: guess would be one of them. If we can't agree on what is the content of the

771
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,840
[barry_cooper]: evangel. We're going to be pushed to do evangelism together. Much as I may

772
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,840
[barry_cooper]: love my Roman Catholic brother and sister

773
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,520
[james_cary]: I mean is one of my frustrations. Though that when we talk about what the

774
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,200
[james_cary]: evangel is, a lot of it is

775
00:39:10,780 --> 00:39:11,780
[barry_cooper]: Right,

776
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,640
[james_cary]: an element of preference about which bits we think are important.

777
00:39:15,140 --> 00:39:16,140
[barry_cooper]: that's fair enough. Yeah,

778
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,000
[james_cary]: So there are a number of folks who I've heard get very frustrated with Church of

779
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,520
[james_cary]: England bishops that when the church beings talk about talk about mission

780
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,480
[james_cary]: evangelism. there's lots of. except we're not agreed on what the gospel is, and

781
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,400
[james_cary]: I'm going to ask them what the gospel is. And if it doesn't match basically two

782
00:39:29,980 --> 00:39:30,980
[barry_cooper]: yeah, Mhm,

783
00:39:31,980 --> 00:39:32,980
[barry_cooper]: yeah.

784
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,280
[james_cary]: ways to live, or some, or my favorite Vs,

785
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,280
[barry_cooper]: yeah. it couldn't possibly be that my version of the gospel is incredibly

786
00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:39,100
[barry_cooper]: anemic,

787
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,840
[james_cary]: if they don't pick one Peter three, eighteen, or whatever

788
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:42,500
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

789
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,440
[james_cary]: it is for Christ died for sinceins once for all the right and rights to bringing

790
00:39:45,340 --> 00:39:46,340
[james_cary]: you to God,

791
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:47,300
[barry_cooper]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

792
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,160
[james_cary]: then they don't understand the gospel. Its like So

793
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:50,740
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

794
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:52,160
[james_cary]: that that's quite a common thing,

795
00:39:52,180 --> 00:39:53,180
[barry_cooper]: that's fair enough.

796
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,160
[james_cary]: which I find frustrating.

797
00:39:55,020 --> 00:39:56,020
[barry_cooper]: Yeah. Yeah,

798
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:56,300
[james_cary]: Um.

799
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,920
[james_cary]: But there was another thing I was going to say and I untunately for gotten. Oh,

800
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:06,160
[james_cary]: what it is. Um, wouldn't it be great if there was just one great big monolithic

801
00:40:06,420 --> 00:40:07,420
[james_cary]: church?

802
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,000
[james_cary]: Hey, wouldn't that be good? And and what that would mean is you'd have a mega

803
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,640
[james_cary]: church in every city because Mega church is a brilliant.

804
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:19,680
[james_cary]: aren't they? Um? I, I can't think of any recent examples of mega churchches

805
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,000
[barry_cooper]: the good army Y have more of those.

806
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,200
[james_cary]: going badly. Let's have more of them and not

807
00:40:22,940 --> 00:40:23,940
[barry_cooper]: Yes,

808
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,960
[james_cary]: only mega churches, but let's have mega denominations, which are

809
00:40:27,580 --> 00:40:28,580
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

810
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:33,200
[james_cary]: where where hu flawed human beings wield extremely large amounts of power and

811
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:33,200
[james_cary]: where where hu flawed human beings wield extremely large amounts of power and

812
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,080
[james_cary]: money. It's like I think I'm making my point,

813
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,080
[james_cary]: money. It's like I think I'm making my point,

814
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,400
[barry_cooper]: and again that ties. Yeah, exactly and I think that ties back to what I was

815
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,520
[barry_cooper]: saying earlier about. I think the sort of preservation of unity that we ▁ought

816
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,320
[barry_cooper]: to be focusing on is at a local church level

817
00:40:47,220 --> 00:40:48,220
[james_cary]: M.

818
00:40:48,980 --> 00:40:49,980
[barry_cooper]: rather than

819
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,440
[barry_cooper]: huge sprawling denominations.

820
00:40:53,420 --> 00:40:54,420
[barry_cooper]: Uh,

821
00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:00,360
[barry_cooper]: trying to enforce from above a kind of ▁quot. unity. and yes,

822
00:40:59,940 --> 00:41:00,940
[james_cary]: Yeah,

823
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,360
[barry_cooper]: I'm using scare, ▁quotes, quite deliberatelyity.

824
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,840
[james_cary]: I mean, we haven't even used the word Catholicity yet.

825
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,160
[james_cary]: Um, but I don't think we're going to go down there. I think maybe a cllaxim will

826
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,880
[james_cary]: go off if I use it again. so I won't. I won't mention again.

827
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,240
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, yeah, the Apostles Creed. Yeah, the the Catholic of the Church,

828
00:41:15,980 --> 00:41:16,980
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

829
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:19,880
[barry_cooper]: so yes, uh,

830
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,720
[barry_cooper]: I don't know if there was. There wasn't a question there. It was just a

831
00:41:23,580 --> 00:41:24,580
[barry_cooper]: statement. but

832
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,080
[james_cary]: No, it was just an observation that, and I wonder if there's also the other

833
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,200
[james_cary]: thing. I' probably put a ▁jingle in just there. The other thing I wonder

834
00:41:30,860 --> 00:41:31,860
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

835
00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:32,140
[james_cary]: is

836
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,720
[james_cary]: again, there is a neatness

837
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,280
[james_cary]: and may be a twentieth centuryness. About centralization. We love

838
00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:42,100
[barry_cooper]: H.

839
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,160
[james_cary]: everything to be centralized, and

840
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,000
[barry_cooper]: who would like the year U. You mean

841
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,800
[james_cary]: by which I mean, I'm sort of also thinking global marxism and no

842
00:41:48,620 --> 00:41:49,620
[barry_cooper]: right?

843
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:54,640
[james_cary]: sorts of movements as well, where there's that kind of uh e. Everything would

844
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:57,280
[james_cary]: just be ordered and better if there was

845
00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:58,100
[barry_cooper]: yeah, yeah,

846
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:58,640
[james_cary]: one organization.

847
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:02,840
[barry_cooper]: there is. this says that Thechenical movement is basically the result of

848
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,120
[barry_cooper]: modernism. Yeah,

849
00:42:03,780 --> 00:42:04,780
[james_cary]: Okay

850
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:05,700
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

851
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,920
[james_cary]: And and which is sort of, we need to bring it all together and have committees

852
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,560
[james_cary]: and subcommittees and ▁zones and regions and

853
00:42:12,860 --> 00:42:13,860
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

854
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,040
[james_cary]: um. Yeah, and and

855
00:42:14,740 --> 00:42:15,740
[barry_cooper]: unified

856
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:20,000
[james_cary]: I think a tiny example of that of though is when I remember. I think I went to

857
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:25,360
[james_cary]: some prayer meeting in parliament or visited and discovered that there were

858
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,640
[james_cary]: three or four different prayer meetings running in Parliament and they weren't

859
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,520
[james_cary]: actually specifically along party lines, but there was a group of fifteen or

860
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,800
[james_cary]: twenty m, Ps. Who prayed together and then on another day at another time, a

861
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,000
[james_cary]: different bunch of M. Ps,

862
00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:43,060
[barry_cooper]: mhm,

863
00:42:42,260 --> 00:42:43,260
[james_cary]: and

864
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,000
[james_cary]: again, part ofy thinks well, Wouldn't it be better if there are three groups of

865
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,640
[james_cary]: twenty? You all got together and sixty of you prayed

866
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,240
[james_cary]: to which the answer is well, Do you know what? if you did that and you said

867
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,640
[james_cary]: right, We're going to scrap three meetings and have one suddenundy. attendance

868
00:43:00,660 --> 00:43:01,660
[james_cary]: is thirty five.

869
00:43:02,380 --> 00:43:03,380
[barry_cooper]: Mhm,

870
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,040
[james_cary]: twenty five people either can't make the meeting or know that if they don't turn

871
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:08,400
[james_cary]: up, no one's going to miss them.

872
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:13,800
[barry_cooper]: Or because that you know, the sixty people will try to do prayer. Gonna go on

873
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,520
[barry_cooper]: for about four days. Don't fancy it

874
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,880
[james_cary]: Yep, and that that talking over thing as while M. P's are quite good at talking,

875
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,960
[james_cary]: so you'd have lots of that people start a prayer at the same time and then go.

876
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:24,800
[james_cary]: No, No, you go. No, no, you you go.

877
00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:26,340
[barry_cooper]: you.

878
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,720
[james_cary]: it is. It would be even more embarrassing in in Westminster than than the rest

879
00:43:30,420 --> 00:43:31,420
[james_cary]: of

880
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,400
[james_cary]: England, Which hope See that would be. so. I think again,

881
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,280
[barry_cooper]: Yeah. yeah, yeah,

882
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,120
[james_cary]: W. small units are an Un. I'm a kind of an

883
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:39,700
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

884
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:45,040
[james_cary]: anti centralized guy. I'm a small state guy, so I, I like these, the small units

885
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,600
[james_cary]: and at at church it's a healthy church that's somewhere between, you know,

886
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,360
[james_cary]: twenty and a hundred and eighty people, maybe two hundred three hundred.

887
00:43:52,940 --> 00:43:53,940
[barry_cooper]: Mhm.

888
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,320
[james_cary]: But at that points that well, why don't you start another church somewhere else

889
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,480
[james_cary]: nearer where half of your congregation live.

890
00:43:58,940 --> 00:43:59,940
[barry_cooper]: yeah. Yeah,

891
00:43:59,220 --> 00:44:00,220
[james_cary]: And then

892
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,200
[james_cary]: so I think it feels like

893
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,960
[james_cary]: there is some wisdom in just keeping everything small,

894
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:09,600
[james_cary]: and in one sense,

895
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,440
[barry_cooper]: I find that so interesting and I think I understand the logic, but

896
00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:13,100
[james_cary]: Yeah,

897
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:13,960
[barry_cooper]: it's really interesting that

898
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,240
[barry_cooper]: you know somebody who is who really believes in the in the Anglican project.

899
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,600
[barry_cooper]: If I caner, um, you know, has that

900
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,720
[barry_cooper]: that of which I would agree with that. I think the smaller units are better. I

901
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:30,760
[barry_cooper]: know. I'm just flagging out. I'm not saying it's inconsistency, I'm just

902
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:31,960
[barry_cooper]: saying it's really interesting.

903
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,080
[james_cary]: no, I think it's important and I think

904
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:34,900
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

905
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:40,000
[james_cary]: that's what I like about it. And that's what I've realized that we need to lean

906
00:44:39,860 --> 00:44:40,860
[james_cary]: into.

907
00:44:41,180 --> 00:44:42,180
[james_cary]: because

908
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,560
[james_cary]: um it it is. I might have caught on this podcast before the Church of England is

909
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,080
[james_cary]: anti fragile,

910
00:44:48,380 --> 00:44:49,380
[barry_cooper]: H.

911
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:55,040
[james_cary]: because every single parish in England is a separate legal institution.

912
00:44:55,260 --> 00:44:56,260
[barry_cooper]: Yes,

913
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,720
[james_cary]: Every, and it's governed to some extent

914
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,520
[barry_cooper]: it's functionally independent congregational.

915
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,120
[james_cary]: It's gover. It's governed by the diocese. So the

916
00:45:02,860 --> 00:45:03,860
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

917
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,280
[james_cary]: so that the bishop is theoretically

918
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,720
[james_cary]: the the minister's boss, but the bishop can't really tell you what to do too

919
00:45:10,740 --> 00:45:11,740
[james_cary]: much. There's quite

920
00:45:11,340 --> 00:45:12,340
[barry_cooper]: yes,

921
00:45:11,660 --> 00:45:12,660
[james_cary]: a lot of leeway

922
00:45:13,020 --> 00:45:14,020
[barry_cooper]: yes,

923
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,720
[james_cary]: and the Archbishops of Canterbury, York can't really get the bishops to to do

924
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,560
[james_cary]: stuff they don't particularly want to do.

925
00:45:20,860 --> 00:45:21,860
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

926
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:27,280
[james_cary]: Um, so you have this really complex system of overlapping institutions

927
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,720
[james_cary]: and I think from people from the outside they get really frustrated

928
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:39,680
[james_cary]: that there's impurity here and difficulty there and anomalies here and there and

929
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,760
[james_cary]: there and there, but at the same time, there's also really good stuff going on

930
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,520
[james_cary]: that is actually quite well protected because it's legally Um. in.

931
00:45:47,180 --> 00:45:48,180
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

932
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,120
[james_cary]: You know, it's separate, so I think, hm,

933
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,520
[barry_cooper]: yeah, yeah, and just to say on that so much depends on the metaphor, does't

934
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,240
[barry_cooper]: it? It's really interesting so people think of. Oh, look at this. look at

935
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,880
[barry_cooper]: this, this ship and it's got all these

936
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,520
[barry_cooper]: compartments. Wouldn't it be better if we just knocked the walls through and

937
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,000
[barry_cooper]: everybody, Alge. No, those compartments are there, so that if you get hold

938
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:10,840
[barry_cooper]: before you know below the water line,

939
00:46:10,740 --> 00:46:11,740
[james_cary]: yeah,

940
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,760
[barry_cooper]: like mean. it's like there's two ways of looking at it and I think very often

941
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:21,960
[barry_cooper]: the, the. The multiplicity of denominations or groups within denomination is

942
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,680
[barry_cooper]: seen as a neslygative thing, when actually is, as you say is anti fragile

943
00:46:26,380 --> 00:46:27,380
[james_cary]: hm,

944
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,440
[barry_cooper]: There'. That is what enables the immune system to work.

945
00:46:30,980 --> 00:46:31,980
[james_cary]: yeah,

946
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,600
[james_cary]: absolutely. so. I think that desire to centralize and have one thing. the Church

947
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,840
[james_cary]: of England is one thing to some extent, but it's also

948
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:48,240
[james_cary]: it. It's common worship and it's thirty nine articles. Um. but it's not really a

949
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:50,480
[james_cary]: it. It's not. It's not

950
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,600
[james_cary]: the the arbish of cantery isn't the C. E, o,

951
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,400
[james_cary]: uh, who can just shut down the whole of the Southwest division? right? We're

952
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,800
[james_cary]: pulling out of Somerset and Devon and Cornwall, because the

953
00:47:02,540 --> 00:47:03,540
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, yeah,

954
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,840
[james_cary]: diocese of Truo, Exeter and Um, Barth and Wells would go. Ah,

955
00:47:08,420 --> 00:47:09,420
[james_cary]: no,

956
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:16,960
[james_cary]: um. So even if you know for financial reasons, one would wish to join a diocese

957
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,480
[james_cary]: together because you know the dices have changed over the last thousand years,

958
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,320
[james_cary]: as you would expect. not as much as you might think, but if you wanted to do

959
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,200
[james_cary]: that, that's going to be a really difficult. You know you need acts of

960
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,000
[james_cary]: Parliament, uh to do that kind of stuff.

961
00:47:30,740 --> 00:47:31,740
[james_cary]: Um,

962
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,840
[james_cary]: So anyway, I mean so, in a way that's kind of what John Stop was probably

963
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:42,080
[james_cary]: hanging on to. Uh, when Martin Noy Jones were saying, Drop it be it, Can it?

964
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:42,900
[barry_cooper]: Mhm.

965
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:46,320
[james_cary]: It's not going to work. I think that it's sort of two different views. Really,

966
00:47:46,820 --> 00:47:47,820
[james_cary]: um,

967
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,000
[barry_cooper]: And and yet I think they.

968
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,360
[barry_cooper]: I think there was a lot of similarity there because ▁lloy Jones would be the

969
00:47:54,140 --> 00:47:55,140
[barry_cooper]: gu, to say.

970
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,440
[barry_cooper]: let's have this sort of more of an independent sort of coach.

971
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:07,640
[barry_cooper]: Um, And what I've heard you say, and I, I. I'm sure the reality of Anglicanism

972
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,120
[barry_cooper]: is having been in it myself for so long is that it is a sort of a, almost a, a

973
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,960
[barry_cooper]: loose agglomeration of effectively independent churches. It's

974
00:48:15,620 --> 00:48:16,620
[james_cary]: M.

975
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,800
[barry_cooper]: not that much difference. Really, I mean, the labor we put on it is very

976
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,200
[barry_cooper]: different, but you know clearly

977
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,560
[barry_cooper]: if Anglicanism were

978
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,080
[barry_cooper]: um, you know what what is perceived to be a bug in the polity I think is

979
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:33,800
[barry_cooper]: actually a feature. In that sense, it's what keeps it going,

980
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,080
[barry_cooper]: Um, that ability to for different congregations to to do things very

981
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,760
[barry_cooper]: differently and not to get you know, chucked out.

982
00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:44,420
[barry_cooper]: Um,

983
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,680
[james_cary]: What's the? What's a similarity or difference with the safe Southern Baptist

984
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,200
[james_cary]: Convention mean cause?

985
00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:49,900
[barry_cooper]: hm,

986
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,680
[james_cary]: the Southern Baptist Convention is a it' a label that a badge. it a branded to

987
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:54,880
[james_cary]: denomination. But to what

988
00:48:54,780 --> 00:48:55,780
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

989
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,280
[james_cary]: extent is it is it similar or different?

990
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,280
[james_cary]: extent is it is it similar or different?

991
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:03,960
[barry_cooper]: well, it's kind of a uh. It's kind of an oxyoron, isn't it? Because what

992
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:09,080
[barry_cooper]: you've got there is this kind of right, right, you guys, everybody be like

993
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:13,240
[barry_cooper]: super independent Be go. You know, keep being independent. E. great, great,

994
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,760
[barry_cooper]: great, go, great. Now everybody's got to get together and have like a you. No

995
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,520
[barry_cooper]: world, as you were all one big happy family. I hang on. I thought you said we

996
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,880
[barry_cooper]: were independent like wh, How does that work? So it seems like there's a.

997
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,480
[barry_cooper]: There's a fundamental tension in there and I don't think that very independent

998
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:32,280
[barry_cooper]: churches should pretend that they are. Uh, there are certain again you can,

999
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,920
[barry_cooper]: certain things you can partner with, but I' think you should pretend that you,

1000
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:40,200
[barry_cooper]: you've got all the hallmarks of a big denomination where your your sort of

1001
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,080
[barry_cooper]: like Presbyterianism or Anglicanism, Because surely that was the one thing you

1002
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,560
[barry_cooper]: were trying to escape, So I, yeah, I don't really understand that. To be quite

1003
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:50,840
[barry_cooper]: frank, somebody who is more converison with the s. B. C could probably speak

1004
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:52,760
[barry_cooper]: much more intelligently into that, but

1005
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:58,960
[james_cary]: So inent it is. it is primarily a Congregationalist movement, but it's an

1006
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,000
[james_cary]: element of its thec in the Uk, which is

1007
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:00,680
[barry_cooper]: well, yeah, I think yeah,

1008
00:50:02,020 --> 00:50:03,020
[barry_cooper]: Mhm. exactly

1009
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,880
[james_cary]: Federation of Independent Evangelical churches.

1010
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:05,700
[barry_cooper]: exactly.

1011
00:50:05,020 --> 00:50:06,020
[james_cary]: There, an element of

1012
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:11,520
[james_cary]: collective wisdom governance, not really oversights.

1013
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,760
[barry_cooper]: Yeah. let's share our resources, but there's certainly no. Yeah, there's

1014
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,760
[barry_cooper]: certainly not not oversight. And so that's where my question mark about the s.

1015
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,760
[barry_cooper]: b C is is like. Well, when you pass a resolution at the s. B C. What does that

1016
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,760
[barry_cooper]: really mean? How do you enforce it? What? like? I thought. The whole point was

1017
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,560
[barry_cooper]: you know you're independent, but anyway, um,

1018
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,800
[james_cary]: Southern Baptists listeners send us an email,

1019
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,840
[james_cary]: Cooper, and Kry a Emil, dot com and

1020
00:50:29,020 --> 00:50:30,020
[barry_cooper]: yeah, let us know.

1021
00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:32,500
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

1022
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,920
[james_cary]: tell us that we're just way off.

1023
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,840
[barry_cooper]: you guys done know what you talking about? I know. and here we are. Episode

1024
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:40,760
[barry_cooper]: one hundred and twenty two. Who's laughing? Now

1025
00:50:41,620 --> 00:50:42,620
[barry_cooper]: we are.

1026
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,040
[james_cary]: Should we? we should probably round this off fairly soon. but should we

1027
00:50:45,060 --> 00:50:46,060
[barry_cooper]: I should I.

1028
00:50:45,220 --> 00:50:46,220
[james_cary]: land on? Calvin

1029
00:50:45,220 --> 00:50:46,220
[james_cary]: land on? Calvin

1030
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:52,520
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, and also maybe this a. a good. I'm glad you brought Calvin up because

1031
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,400
[barry_cooper]: one of his main points is something we. we. I didn't get to talk about when we

1032
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:02,600
[barry_cooper]: talk about John, Chapter, uh, Seventeen Is he basically says, If I'm

1033
00:51:02,740 --> 00:51:03,740
[barry_cooper]: understanding him right,

1034
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,200
[barry_cooper]: there's no unity without truth.

1035
00:51:07,740 --> 00:51:08,740
[barry_cooper]: So

1036
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,080
[barry_cooper]: in John Seventeen, all of that stuff that I read earlier

1037
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:18,360
[barry_cooper]: that there's two right in the middle of all of that. there's there's two

1038
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:24,040
[barry_cooper]: verses which are really really significant where Jesus says. Um. he says,

1039
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,640
[barry_cooper]: Sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth.

1040
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:31,960
[barry_cooper]: Um, and let me find the other bit. Yeah,

1041
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:33,360
[james_cary]: was the motto of my school.

1042
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,680
[barry_cooper]: he also says There you go. It's

1043
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,840
[barry_cooper]: a good one. Firsters seventeen and Verse nineteen. For their sake, I

1044
00:51:34,780 --> 00:51:35,780
[james_cary]: Your word is truth.

1045
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,640
[barry_cooper]: consecrate myself that they also may be sanctified

1046
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,480
[barry_cooper]: in truth. So all of the talk of unity in that high priestly prayer.

1047
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,880
[barry_cooper]: the understanding is that comes about because of the truth,

1048
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,160
[barry_cooper]: and again, it's probably a trueism. To say. I don't want to belaeer the point

1049
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,320
[barry_cooper]: because it's been made by Calvin and others, and the more eloquently than this

1050
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,560
[barry_cooper]: particular chimp. But there,

1051
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:10,440
[barry_cooper]: um. but how are we going to have any sort of unity? It has to be unity in the

1052
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,440
[barry_cooper]: truth, Otherwise it's not unity at all. Now we can obviously then have a big

1053
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,040
[barry_cooper]: long conversation about all right. Well, which bits of these of the truth are

1054
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:22,440
[barry_cooper]: kind of really super nonegotiable, in which on but ▁ultimately, it is the

1055
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:27,240
[barry_cooper]: truth which grounds us, and if we have um, significant differences, like for

1056
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:32,120
[barry_cooper]: example, that, maybe we think that God is not actually triun. Um. Well, we're

1057
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,960
[barry_cooper]: not going to have. It seems to be much unity, except only in a very shallow

1058
00:52:36,300 --> 00:52:37,300
[barry_cooper]: sense.

1059
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:43,000
[barry_cooper]: So if we lose sight of the, The truth is the ground of our unity,

1060
00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:44,900
[barry_cooper]: then

1061
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,160
[barry_cooper]: we start making unity

1062
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:54,120
[barry_cooper]: king rather than truth King. And if you want a, if you want to be united at

1063
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,760
[barry_cooper]: all costs, Yeah, absolutely, go ahead, not yourselves out.

1064
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,320
[barry_cooper]: But what have you really achieved? You've now got unity. But in order to

1065
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:06,040
[barry_cooper]: preach what truth and the reality is that often you have to sacrifice it. so

1066
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,680
[barry_cooper]: I'd I have to be careful here. as I'm saying this that I don already want to

1067
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:13,240
[barry_cooper]: get people into trouble, but my own tiny little personal experience of this

1068
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:19,960
[barry_cooper]: was a. A Seventhy Adventist Church invited a group of us to go preach there.

1069
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,800
[barry_cooper]: We said absolutely, if you'll let us preach and we don't have to compromise

1070
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,440
[barry_cooper]: anything or water down. anything We saying. We'll go.

1071
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,400
[barry_cooper]: What happened in practice was

1072
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:37,160
[barry_cooper]: in the preaching. Um, Because we were aware that the guy who invited us was A

1073
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,600
[barry_cooper]: was a big donor for the organization, so there was a certain amount of tacit

1074
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:45,640
[barry_cooper]: pressure there, lovely guy, by the way, totally delightful, lovely guy, But

1075
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,200
[barry_cooper]: very subtly we played down, and in the fact, then just left out

1076
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:58,360
[barry_cooper]: of a talk. Any reference to Um iter, the Um. God's wrath and eternal torment

1077
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,040
[barry_cooper]: in Hell, because we knew this seventh advents or annihilationist,

1078
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:03,700
[james_cary]: Oh, A

1079
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:05,320
[barry_cooper]: So yeah, fun fact.

1080
00:54:05,980 --> 00:54:06,980
[barry_cooper]: So

1081
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,320
[barry_cooper]: there was just a subtle pressure that came about there and we wanted to be

1082
00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:15,480
[barry_cooper]: you. You know, Join hands. be united. Yes, let's you know we can. we can. With

1083
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:20,120
[barry_cooper]: so much that we agree on here, and yet the one thing that actually, one of the

1084
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:21,240
[barry_cooper]: things we disagreed on

1085
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:27,000
[barry_cooper]: there was a tendency to. Um. it's not. it's never the con. It's never the

1086
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,280
[barry_cooper]: liberals that become more conservative in in doctrinineal belief. Its always

1087
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,400
[barry_cooper]: the conservatives that become more liberal when you, when you join hands like

1088
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,400
[barry_cooper]: this, And that's what happened. In my experience, we left it out and you know,

1089
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:38,920
[barry_cooper]: to our, to our shame,

1090
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,240
[james_cary]: Yeah. Well, They having said that, some say that John Stop was anolationist,

1091
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,320
[barry_cooper]: indeed, towards the end of his life, that was his position.

1092
00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:48,500
[james_cary]: Hm,

1093
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,520
[barry_cooper]: And uh, you know that that's right, but it, it was not the position of. even

1094
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,440
[barry_cooper]: though we came from his church, That was not the position of Uh, any of us

1095
00:54:56,340 --> 00:54:57,340
[barry_cooper]: when we went?

1096
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,000
[james_cary]: Yeah, and that in itself is a little

1097
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,080
[james_cary]: tale of. Oh, that's it. then cancel. St.

1098
00:55:05,300 --> 00:55:06,300
[james_cary]: He's gone soft

1099
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,840
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, that's right. that's right.

1100
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,960
[james_cary]: on the gospel and it's like at this point it's it's the eternal inquisition.

1101
00:55:10,820 --> 00:55:11,820
[james_cary]: It's the

1102
00:55:11,580 --> 00:55:12,580
[barry_cooper]: Mhm,

1103
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,800
[james_cary]: Stliist church, Sty, Inist show trials, isn't

1104
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,160
[james_cary]: it? It's yeah, and it's And and where does it end?

1105
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,240
[barry_cooper]: Perrge, Yeah, yeah, Mhm,

1106
00:55:19,100 --> 00:55:20,100
[barry_cooper]: we are.

1107
00:55:19,300 --> 00:55:20,300
[james_cary]: Um,

1108
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:26,520
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, but again we're responsible. If if you believe that this doctrine is

1109
00:55:26,220 --> 00:55:27,220
[barry_cooper]: true,

1110
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,680
[barry_cooper]: you can't pretend that it isn't true. for the sake of unity. That way madness

1111
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:37,360
[james_cary]: but also lots of things. presup. supposes that disagreement is embarrassing,

1112
00:55:32,660 --> 00:55:33,660
[barry_cooper]: lies. you know,

1113
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:38,500
[james_cary]: unthinkable and wrong

1114
00:55:38,820 --> 00:55:39,820
[barry_cooper]: Hm,

1115
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:44,160
[james_cary]: When we're given plenty of evidence that you know. In acts alone, you know,

1116
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,880
[james_cary]: proper, stand up rows over issues

1117
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:47,880
[barry_cooper]: yeah, yeah,

1118
00:55:47,660 --> 00:55:48,660
[james_cary]: in public,

1119
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:54,240
[james_cary]: but also within Po's writing, some of you consider one day holy and others don't

1120
00:55:54,460 --> 00:55:55,460
[barry_cooper]: Mhm,

1121
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,240
[james_cary]: Um, and you know, bear each other in mind,

1122
00:55:59,060 --> 00:56:00,060
[barry_cooper]: yeah, absolutely

1123
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,760
[james_cary]: Not, he's not knocking heads together.

1124
00:56:02,220 --> 00:56:03,220
[barry_cooper]: no.

1125
00:56:02,740 --> 00:56:03,740
[james_cary]: Um. it

1126
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:04,500
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

1127
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:09,600
[james_cary]: feels like what's called a pastoral accommodation is built in. Uh, to.

1128
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:10,680
[barry_cooper]: that's absolutely right. and

1129
00:56:10,420 --> 00:56:11,420
[james_cary]: but

1130
00:56:10,820 --> 00:56:11,820
[barry_cooper]: at the same time, of course,

1131
00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:12,700
[james_cary]: hm.

1132
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:17,400
[barry_cooper]: he's also saying, I am astonished that you have abandoned the gospel that you

1133
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,000
[barry_cooper]: know. I wish they go. the wholehog and em masculate themselves. Do, I mean,

1134
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,000
[barry_cooper]: that's well, that's not very ecemenical.

1135
00:56:22,660 --> 00:56:23,660
[james_cary]: Yeah,

1136
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,080
[barry_cooper]: Is it poor? Come on. say yes, It's

1137
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:29,800
[barry_cooper]: holding those two things and deciding that would not be Paul, Paul. come

1138
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,520
[james_cary]: that would not be an ecumenical matter.

1139
00:56:29,540 --> 00:56:30,540
[james_cary]: Poor.

1140
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,680
[barry_cooper]: on now. Oh E. that's terrible. isn't It might be time for an en. your ▁jin

1141
00:56:34,740 --> 00:56:35,740
[barry_cooper]: round about now.

1142
00:56:36,380 --> 00:56:37,380
[barry_cooper]: Um.

1143
00:56:36,580 --> 00:56:37,580
[james_cary]: Definitely,

1144
00:56:36,940 --> 00:56:37,940
[barry_cooper]: but

1145
00:56:38,580 --> 00:56:39,580
[james_cary]: definitely,

1146
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,160
[barry_cooper]: but anyway, that's sorry. that's all. I rode your your pobby horse. There,

1147
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,200
[barry_cooper]: rode my own hobby horse. As you raised it. I will stop doing that. Now,

1148
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:47,680
[james_cary]: which hobby horse is that?

1149
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,520
[barry_cooper]: get off and step away from the horse. Oh, the stuff about truth, you know,

1150
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,880
[barry_cooper]: blah, blah, blah, Yadi, added, truth, Capbaly, be be

1151
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,520
[james_cary]: But it, in a way there's no point in having unity if it's not based on truth.

1152
00:56:57,420 --> 00:56:58,420
[james_cary]: That's that's

1153
00:56:57,860 --> 00:56:58,860
[barry_cooper]: exactly

1154
00:56:58,180 --> 00:56:59,180
[james_cary]: just unity.

1155
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:01,560
[barry_cooper]: exactly. I think so.

1156
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:05,360
[james_cary]: Um, So that's not um. That's not what the church is about. It is gathered around

1157
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:09,840
[james_cary]: Christ and I guess that the last headline. Really, Um, as I was thinking about

1158
00:57:09,660 --> 00:57:10,660
[james_cary]: this is

1159
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,920
[james_cary]: if we're not careful, we still have a very man centered view of what the church

1160
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,240
[james_cary]: is and what it's for,

1161
00:57:18,860 --> 00:57:19,860
[barry_cooper]: Mhm.

1162
00:57:19,380 --> 00:57:20,380
[james_cary]: and

1163
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:26,800
[james_cary]: forgetting that it is the bride of Christ, the people of God. we are going to be

1164
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,040
[james_cary]: the ones before the throne. The fact that we can't get on now it should be no

1165
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:32,880
[james_cary]: great surprise to Anybondy and

1166
00:57:32,740 --> 00:57:33,740
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, quite

1167
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,560
[james_cary]: therefore wouldn't it be great if we got on better. Yes,

1168
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,560
[james_cary]: um, will that always be possible? No, is

1169
00:57:40,220 --> 00:57:41,220
[barry_cooper]: Mhm.

1170
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,440
[james_cary]: that the end of the world? No, the end of the world is the end of the world.

1171
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,280
[james_cary]: That's that's the profound insights.

1172
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:47,960
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, is the literal, Yeah,

1173
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:49,680
[james_cary]: Yeah, um,

1174
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,920
[james_cary]: and it's easy to forget that you know W.

1175
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,560
[barry_cooper]: yeah, yeah, the escaton, It's not the end of the world, is it?

1176
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,800
[james_cary]: well as I was thinking about this from a different angle, and I, I've been sent

1177
00:57:58,580 --> 00:57:59,580
[james_cary]: Um,

1178
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,880
[james_cary]: some books uh, from the Davna institute, So I went. I'd sort of sent out an s. o

1179
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,120
[james_cary]: s to Re Svity, who had this podcos recently

1180
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,000
[barry_cooper]: Our friends are the Domin insitute,

1181
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,000
[james_cary]: and I'll I' I'll mention his books more in the future,

1182
00:58:10,660 --> 00:58:11,660
[james_cary]: Um.

1183
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:17,280
[james_cary]: but as I was reading some of these uh books about the history, Uh of of all of

1184
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,280
[james_cary]: this stuff, and the historytor of of Catholicity, and Um, and everything

1185
00:58:22,100 --> 00:58:23,100
[james_cary]: is,

1186
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,160
[james_cary]: it's very easy for us to think again. If you're the product of British

1187
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:33,120
[james_cary]: Conservativevangicalism you might think the churches there so that I get good

1188
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,360
[james_cary]: teaching and then go to heaven.

1189
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:42,640
[james_cary]: The the church is the Is is the kind of the mouthpiece, the method, the the

1190
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,600
[james_cary]: disciplinary board that keeps you on the straight narrow so that I get to the

1191
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,800
[james_cary]: celestial city. There'. there's no real church in Pilgrim's Progress, is there?

1192
00:58:54,560 --> 00:59:00,320
[james_cary]: There's the Pope, not a hero of Pilgrim's Progress, Uh, pope, A k, a anti

1193
00:59:00,460 --> 00:59:01,460
[james_cary]: Christ, Ah,

1194
00:59:01,220 --> 00:59:02,220
[barry_cooper]: Hm.

1195
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:02,880
[james_cary]: I think Um.

1196
00:59:02,900 --> 00:59:03,900
[barry_cooper]: right. it really

1197
00:59:03,620 --> 00:59:04,620
[james_cary]: But,

1198
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,240
[barry_cooper]: now discolors to the master as indeed he does throughout the book.

1199
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:12,320
[james_cary]: and therefore my continual dislike of Programms, progress Uh for its literalism,

1200
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:17,840
[james_cary]: but also the fact that it's this is a journey we all take alone. You become a

1201
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,920
[james_cary]: Christian, you get yourself to the eternal city, the celestial city,

1202
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,760
[james_cary]: and he occasionally hangs out with a guy called faithful,

1203
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:31,760
[james_cary]: Um. And but there's there's no one called. There's no one called church, and

1204
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,920
[james_cary]: there's no group of people down the road called Coffee rotor, Um, And there's

1205
00:59:35,620 --> 00:59:36,620
[james_cary]: no.

1206
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:41,040
[james_cary]: So, I think maybe that incredibly successful book

1207
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,880
[james_cary]: is is part of a bigger piece, which is with still fundamentally individualists

1208
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,360
[james_cary]: and therefore we think I should be able to have a denomination to choose that is

1209
00:59:51,220 --> 00:59:52,220
[james_cary]: in my image.

1210
00:59:52,220 --> 00:59:53,220
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, yeah,

1211
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:54,320
[james_cary]: And you know,

1212
00:59:54,380 --> 00:59:55,380
[barry_cooper]: yeah,

1213
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,920
[james_cary]: and and I'm not one of those people. I'm one of these people. I prefer this to

1214
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,760
[barry_cooper]: the classic Roman Catholic criticism of the of the Reformation. Yeah, yeah,

1215
00:59:57,540 --> 00:59:58,540
[james_cary]: that.

1216
01:00:00,260 --> 01:00:01,260
[james_cary]: Y.

1217
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,120
[barry_cooper]: another little dig there and you never missed an opportunity, Mister Cary, to

1218
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:10,200
[barry_cooper]: have a little dick and our friend John Bunn, James Cary, uh, John Bunyan,

1219
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,760
[barry_cooper]: maybe just uh, in this celestial celestial wine and cheese party The first

1220
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,520
[barry_cooper]: night's going to be great. looking forward to.

1221
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,000
[james_cary]: Yeah, now I'm looking forward to. I. I think his own personal story is probably

1222
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:21,440
[james_cary]: more interesting. I' be much

1223
01:00:21,100 --> 01:00:22,100
[barry_cooper]: No,

1224
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,840
[james_cary]: keen to hear about that. Tell us about how you wrote the book in prison. Let me

1225
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,480
[james_cary]: tell you about the book. No, no, no, no, tell me about how you wrote it. That's

1226
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,840
[barry_cooper]: No, don't do that. I've I've I've read your book. It's

1227
01:00:28,460 --> 01:00:29,460
[james_cary]: matter. interesting.

1228
01:00:30,580 --> 01:00:31,580
[james_cary]: Yeah,

1229
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:32,200
[barry_cooper]: fine. You don't need to. Yeah,

1230
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:37,040
[james_cary]: but he itself is a product of church discipline and state church overlap over

1231
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,480
[james_cary]: Eachach Bann from preaching. kept preaching put in prison,

1232
01:00:40,340 --> 01:00:41,340
[barry_cooper]: Mhm. Mhm.

1233
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,480
[james_cary]: so he's not had a good experience of the church,

1234
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:47,760
[james_cary]: so I guess we shouldn't be surprised

1235
01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:49,300
[barry_cooper]: Well,

1236
01:00:48,540 --> 01:00:49,540
[james_cary]: at that

1237
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:53,240
[barry_cooper]: you certainly not had a good experience of this of Church state, Uh alliance.

1238
01:00:53,420 --> 01:00:54,420
[barry_cooper]: Yes,

1239
01:00:54,340 --> 01:00:55,340
[james_cary]: and that's

1240
01:00:54,780 --> 01:00:55,780
[barry_cooper]: um,

1241
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:56,960
[james_cary]: one for another podcast.

1242
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:02,520
[barry_cooper]: that would be for another episode. Thank you for. Thank you for joining us.

1243
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:08,040
[barry_cooper]: everybody once again If you would like more of this, and frankly, why wouldn't

1244
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:12,920
[barry_cooper]: you? Uh, we've got a patrian um scheme scheme. No, not Paton scheme. That

1245
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,440
[barry_cooper]: makes it on like a Ponsy scheme, doesn't it? It's a lovely little club. Is

1246
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:21,960
[barry_cooper]: what it is. It's a nice soft furry club. Go to Coubpercerry Dot Com and click

1247
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:26,120
[barry_cooper]: on the Patrion link at the bottom right, and that will get you all sorts of

1248
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:30,520
[barry_cooper]: goodies which are currently going up on the screen. if you're watching. If

1249
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,560
[barry_cooper]: they're not, then just click on the link in the show notes of the Potcast and

1250
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,840
[barry_cooper]: that you'll better to see all the lovely things that you, too, um, can enjoy

1251
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:41,000
[barry_cooper]: extent instead of Audi on video, and access to the exclusive discord serve,

1252
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:45,240
[barry_cooper]: and all some other wonderful stuff. Are there any other ways that people can

1253
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,160
[barry_cooper]: get in touch with us, James, if they want to?

1254
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,160
[james_cary]: They can, a couper and carry a g mode, dot com, Facebook

1255
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,200
[james_cary]: and Twitter. Nobodybd bothers with Facebook for us, but

1256
01:01:55,360 --> 01:02:00,640
[james_cary]: Twitter is a thing intagram. We have been namen to Instram occasionally, but

1257
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:57,960
[barry_cooper]: Oh, Twitter. really, Twitter is a little bit. ▁quiet.

1258
01:02:00,220 --> 01:02:01,220
[barry_cooper]: Yeah,

1259
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:05,280
[james_cary]: I have to say the best way is, but he's actually patrion, um. so do join us

1260
01:02:05,460 --> 01:02:06,460
[james_cary]: there. Usually.

1261
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,160
[barry_cooper]: did James and I are on on the On the discord? Several all the time?

1262
01:02:08,900 --> 01:02:09,900
[james_cary]: Yeah,

1263
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,320
[barry_cooper]: So we really have lots of one to one and one to group, sort of um

1264
01:02:12,980 --> 01:02:13,980
[james_cary]: y.

1265
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:14,840
[barry_cooper]: chats with each other and it's great.

1266
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,800
[james_cary]: and it's kind of what youd hoped that Facebook was going to be like uh, but

1267
01:02:18,620 --> 01:02:19,620
[james_cary]: wasn't

1268
01:02:19,740 --> 01:02:20,740
[barry_cooper]: Yeah, yeah,

1269
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:22,800
[james_cary]: um. so. uh, so yeah, so do join us there.

1270
01:02:22,380 --> 01:02:23,380
[barry_cooper]: Mhm.

1271
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,480
[james_cary]: But tennis, ne, ma couper and carage, you model, Come be cause we'll do a mailbg

1272
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,000
[james_cary]: episode soon. We should probably start delving in the mail, baag, um,

1273
01:02:29,780 --> 01:02:30,780
[barry_cooper]: we really should,

1274
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:32,080
[james_cary]: and uh, yeah,

1275
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,720
[barry_cooper]: because Christmas is coming up, isn't it?

1276
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:34,700
[james_cary]: yeah,

1277
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,560
[barry_cooper]: And uh, the decks are already going up in the Couper househd. I know that's

1278
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:41,800
[barry_cooper]: probably a horrendous thought to you, James. but they are, and Uh, Maria Carey

1279
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:43,720
[barry_cooper]: was even played on Spotfi the other night.

1280
01:02:43,740 --> 01:02:44,740
[james_cary]: too soon.

1281
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,080
[barry_cooper]: To To A could almost hear you saying it when it happened and

1282
01:02:48,660 --> 01:02:49,660
[james_cary]: Yeah,

1283
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,240
[barry_cooper]: I'm inclined to agree, but there it is. we have

1284
01:02:50,900 --> 01:02:51,900
[james_cary]: yeah,

1285
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,280
[barry_cooper]: madwams last Christmas yet, Though so all hope is not lost.

1286
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:58,080
[james_cary]: for me, it's um, uh, Christmas wrapping by the waitresses. That's the one that

1287
01:02:57,740 --> 01:02:58,740
[james_cary]: always

1288
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,720
[james_cary]: gets me Gets me going. That's one of my favorite one and I like quite like Paul

1289
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,160
[barry_cooper]: That's right. That's your favorite one. Yeah,

1290
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,400
[james_cary]: Mccarney's one simply having a wonderful Christmas time. I quite like that one.

1291
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,120
[barry_cooper]: I like that one. Lots of slaigy bells on that one.

1292
01:03:07,780 --> 01:03:08,780
[james_cary]: Yeah,

1293
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:13,320
[barry_cooper]: Um, so yes, thank you for joining us. and uh, God willing, we will speak to

1294
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,800
[barry_cooper]: you again in two weeks. time cheery by

1295
01:03:15,860 --> 01:03:16,860
[james_cary]: byebe